Today’s post features the second part of my conversation with Dr. Michael C. Jackson, discussing the upcoming Systems Thinking Systems Practice Conference at Hull and his latest book, Critical Systems Thinking: A Practitioner's Guide.
We discuss how the upcoming conference is dedicated to merging theory with practice. Mike highlights the limitations of the traditional scientific method when addressing human complexity, advocating instead for a pluralistic approach that includes diverse traditions like cybernetics and complexity theory.
We then discuss his latest book in which he introduced his "EPIC" framework - Explore, Produce, Intervene, Check - as a practical guide for professionals to navigate organizational challenges and power dynamics.
You also don’t want to miss the discussions on risk management. Checkout the full episode below.
Systems thinking not only erases the boundaries between the points of view that define the sciences and professions, it also erases the boundary between science and the humanities.
Podcast Video
Members of the Cyb3rSyn Community can watch/discuss the podcast episode on the www.cyb3rsynlabs.com portal or the mobile app (iOS and Android). The video is also on YouTube here 👇🏾
Key Insights and My Reflections
As a cybersecurity practitioner who jumped into entrepreneurship, I'm constantly searching for better ways to understand the messy, interconnected world we build in. From that lens, it was an absolute privilege and delight to sit down with and learn from Dr. Mike C Jackson, a towering figure in the systems thinking world.
Our conversation was a profound journey through the past, present, and future of systems practice. If you are building the next large language model or trying to secure a large corporation, this conversation is a vital reminder of how our technology fits into the broader human perspective.
Here are the key insights and my reflections…
The MIT Trap: Why Systems Dynamics Isn't Enough
The Blind Spot of the Scientific Method
Rethinking Risk: Beyond the Tick-Box
Becoming a "Systems Person"
Appendix - Video Guide on Risk Management
The MIT Trap: Why Systems Dynamics Isn't Enough
In the US, particularly in Silicon Valley, Systems Thinking is frequently reduced to a single methodology: Systems Dynamics, heavily popularized by institutions like MIT. I've seen tech executives attend a workshop, learn to draw causal loop diagrams, and suddenly believe they have the ultimate blueprint of their organization's inner workings.
Mike points out that while Systems Dynamics is incredibly valuable - especially in environmental modeling, it is not the be-all and end-all. Treating one methodology as a hammer makes every complex problem look like a nail. The UK, and specifically the Centre for Systems Studies at Hull University, has embraced a much more pluralistic approach known as critical systems thinking. By embracing a variety of traditions -including soft systems, cybernetics, and complexity theory - they can choose the right approach for the specific nuance of the problem at hand.
The Blind Spot of the Scientific Method
As technologists, most of us have STEM degrees and we owe our industry to the scientific method. Tracing back to Descartes and Newton, this mechanistic worldview has given us incredible control over physical reality, leading to leaps in medicine, agriculture, and computing. However, Mike argues that the scientific method fails us when dealing with organized complexity and human freedom.
During the Enlightenment, a "radical" side championed by romantic poets like Goethe and Wordsworth was suppressed by the sheer success of the scientific model. This suppressed side recognized humans as a conscious part of nature, capable of poetic and societal relationships.
When we divide the world strictly into reductionist disciplines, we lose the larger picture. I was reminded of the following quote from one of my childhood heroes, Richard Feynman:
A poet once said, “The whole universe is in a glass of wine.” We will probably never know in what sense he meant that, for poets do not write to be understood. But it is true that if we look at a glass of wine closely enough we see the entire universe. There are the things of physics: the twisting liquid which evaporates depending on the wind and weather, the reflections in the glass, and our imagination adds the atoms. The glass is a distillation of the earth’s rocks, and in its composition we see the secrets of the universe’s age, and the evolution of stars. What strange array of chemicals are in the wine? How did they come to be? There are the ferments, the enzymes, the substrates, and the products. There in wine is found the great generalization: all life is fermentation. Nobody can discover the chemistry of wine without discovering, as did Louis Pasteur, the cause of much disease. How vivid is the claret, pressing its existence into the consciousness that watches it! If our small minds, for some convenience, divide this glass of wine, this universe, into parts—physics, biology, geology, astronomy, psychology, and so on—remember that nature does not know it! So let us put it all back together, not forgetting ultimately what it is for. Let it give us one more final pleasure: drink it and forget it all!
Mike advocates for a "balanced world" where transdisciplinary, holistic systems thinking complements our scientific achievements rather than being replaced by them.
Rethinking Risk: Beyond the Tick-Box
In my world of cybersecurity, peers often explain breaches purely as technical failures —a missing security control or a software bug. But I’ve always believed the true vulnerabilities lie in the underlying human elements: internal power struggles, teams refusing to communicate, and perverse/conflicting incentives.
Mike added a key insight: Traditional risk management is built on a mechanistic foundation, often devolving into procedural "tick-box" exercises. Critical systems thinking challenges this by illuminating dominant risks that traditional methods miss, such as an organization's inability to respond to its environment, stakeholder disagreements, or the blowback from polluting the environment. When we view risk through these multiple lenses, we elevate our focus from mere technical efficiency to true resilience. More thoughts on this and a guide in the video below - exclusive to our premium-tier subscribers.
Becoming a "Systems Person"
As we wrapped up, Mike shared a vulnerable insight: spending decades as a systems academic writing 700-page books can ironically take you away from actually being a "systems person". True systems thinking requires you to commune with nature, connect with family, and develop as a rounded human being.
This deeply resonated with me. Discovering systems thinking wasn't just a career upgrade; it fundamentally changed how I view my role as a father, a human, and an entrepreneur.
As Mike beautifully concluded, “systems thinking doesn't just improve technical processes; it links us to the universe and allows us to reflect upon our place within it.”
Appendix - Video Guide on Risk Management
That’s it for this week.
Stay tuned for more multidisciplinary insights next week.
For premium-tier customers, here is a video guide titled “Why Mechanistic Risk Management Fails and What to Do About It?”
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