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This week’s Cyb3rSyn Newsletter brings the seventh Cyb3rSyn Labs Podcast episode, my conversation with Liam Mahon.

I’ve long admired Liam as a systems thinker and a keen practitioner. Over the years, I’ve gained invaluable insights from his online posts, which range from reflections on Winnie the Pooh to a diverse array of thought-provoking topics. What’s particularly fascinating is the insights I’ve gleaned from his interactions with others on social media platforms. Observing his exchanges has been a continuous source of myth busting and learning for me. I hope to convey some of those insights in today’s newsletter and podcast.

Liam's ability to blend practical experience with a deep understanding of the underlying principles made for a truly enriching discussion. Here are some of the key messages and takeaways that resonated the most with me.

Perhaps the most intriguing part of Liam's origin story was his seemingly surprising answer to the question of how his journey started: "Guinness". It is a thought-provoking post he wrote during his time at Lancaster Police titled "Guinness versus the Lancaster Constabulary". Faced with significant funding cuts and centralization efforts that impacted frontline policing and victim support, Liam drew an analogy between Guinness's ability to scale production while maintaining a consistent product and the challenges faced by the police force. He argued that unlike the standardized nature of Guinness, the diverse communities served by the police required nuanced and localized responses, something that was being lost through increasing centralization. This insight, that managing scale with inherent complexity demands a fundamentally different approach than simply replicating standardized processes, became a foundational moment in his systems thinking journey.

One of Liam's core perspectives, and one that often sparks debate, is his assertion that "systems don't exist". He clarified this by explaining that organizations, like systems, are not tangible, static entities but rather "patterning of human behavior". An empty office building at night isn't "organizing". It's the rules, policies, exchange of value, and social networks that create the observed patterns of behavior we call an ‘organization’. This understanding is crucial because it shifts our focus from treating organizations as mechanical systems that can be simply optimized for 100% efficiency.

Liam strongly cautioned against the pursuit of ultimate optimization in human systems, drawing on the observation that around 66% is often the realistic limit. He illustrated this with a humorous yet telling anecdote about a manager who proposed moving the water tank into the call center to reduce call takers' downtime. Liam astutely pointed out that humans have inherent needs for breaks and social interaction ("water cooler talk" as we call it, here in the US). Attempts to eliminate these natural pauses will likely lead to employees finding other ways to create that necessary downtime, potentially in less productive ways. He emphasized that understanding and designing systems and services that acknowledge these human needs ultimately leads to a more engaged and realistically optimized workforce. Moreover, a system running at 100% efficiency becomes fragile and unable to adapt to dynamic changes in demand. A slightly less "optimized" system with engaged employees has the capacity to flex and respond effectively.

Building on the idea that "systems don't exist" as tangible objects, Liam emphasized that we should use the concept of a "system" as a way to understand something, rather than treating it as a concrete entity we can simply manipulate. He used the examples of the police force and the NHS. While we might say the police force's purpose is to keep people safe, the police alone cannot achieve this. To truly address safety, we need to consider a broader "system of influence" that includes factors like housing, education, and economic conditions. The danger lies in treating a defined "system" as a machine that can be tweaked and engineered to produce a desired output, rather than recognizing it as a sense-making tool to inform our actions within a complex reality.

Liam shared a compelling case study illustrating the practical application of a systems perspective, focusing on boundary setting within a control room. Faced with a request to simply map a process for efficiency, Liam instead facilitated an exercise where two teams independently drew a systems map of a football team and then the control room itself. The results were revealing: one team drew themselves outside the control room boundary, while the other included both teams within it. This highlighted a fundamental difference in their perception of collaboration and shared responsibility, revealing a deeper issue than just process inefficiencies. By focusing on these differing boundaries, Liam was able to address underlying social and potentially hierarchical issues that were hindering effective teamwork, ultimately leading to more impactful changes than a simple “value stream map” would have provided.

Liam articulated why understanding and applying systems thinking is more critical than ever. In an increasingly complex, fast-paced, and interdependent global society, many of the challenges we face are beyond the comprehension of any single individual. He pointed out the humbling realization that "no one's really got a full handle on what's happening". Systems thinking provides the tools to make better, more informed decisions that consider long-term consequences, multiple perspectives, feedback loops, effectiveness, and ethics. This is why he is so passionate about protecting the integrity of systems thinking as a vital body of knowledge, rather than seeing it reduced to a simplistic management consultancy tool focused solely on efficiency.

In his closing remarks, Liam shared profound advice from Heinz von Foerster:

He emphasized that our presence as observers inevitably influences the system we are trying to understand. Being aware of our own impact is crucial for gaining a more objective view. He also revisited the story of the elephant, highlighting that the arrogance of the observer who claims to see the whole picture often blinds them to the multiple valid perspectives within the system. Finally, he underscored that the purpose of a system is revealed by what it does, not just what it says it does, and that systems serve different purposes for different people. His parting thought was a playful yet serious reminder:

My conversation with Liam was a powerful reminder of the value of looking beyond surface-level solutions and embracing a more holistic, systems-oriented perspective. His insights into the nature of organizations, the limitations of optimization, and the true essence of systems thinking offer invaluable guidance for navigating the complexities of our modern world, especially for those of us in the ever-evolving technology landscape.

Members of the Cyb3rSyn Community can watch the podcast episode on the www.cyb3rsynlabs.com portal or the mobile app (iOS and Android).

The full podcast episode is also available here:

Here are the books recommended/referenced in the podcast session: