This week’s Cyb3rSyn Newsletter brings the sixth Cyb3rSyn Labs Podcast episode, my conversation with Geoff Elliot. This episode is available to all the subscribers of the Cyb3rSyn Newsletter (including the free-tier) and can be watched on www.cyb3rsyn.com.
Geoff has been a practitioner of systems thinking for multiple decades. His journey into systems thinking began over 30 years ago when he worked for Raytheon Corporation. Geoff has since worked for various international companies globally and even represented Denmark at the United Nations, drawing upon systems thinking concepts to address international program challenges.
In this podcast, Geoff emphasizes that systems thinking is not a singular methodology but rather a collection of diverse approaches, underpinned by key concepts and requiring experiential knowledge. He highlights common misunderstandings, such as viewing systems thinking as solely holistic or a step-by-step process.
The conversation also touches upon the cultural challenges of adopting systems thinking in organizations, particularly the tendency towards solution-focused thinking and the neglect of observer perspectives.
Tired of “solution” selling consultants who truly don’t understand the problem situation?
Join us for a revealing conversation with the Systems Thinking veteran Geoff Elliot, as he debunks common myths and unveils the power of systemic insight for effective leadership.
… the idea of ‘system’ is an abstraction which we reify and anthropomorphize, forgetting that it is simply a conceptual device to think about what we are producing ‘as if’ it were a system.”
Table of Contents
Podcast with Geoff Elliott
Here are some of insights from our conversation. Geoff emphasizes that Systems Thinking Systems Practice is not a singular discipline or methodology, dispelling a common myth. Instead, he describes four basic groups:
Different approaches (around 20, including Soft Systems Method, Critical Systems Heuristics, Systems Engineering, Systems Dynamics, Viable Systems Model, etc.),
Underpinning concepts and ideas from seminal thinkers (e.g., Churchman, Beer, Ackoff, etc.),
Diagramming methods and techniques (systems mapping, cognitive mapping, causal mapping, rich pictures), and
The required skills and competencies (dealing with ambiguity, boundary crossing, etc.).
He notes that expertise in these areas, especially in combining different approaches and utilizing diagramming techniques, comes from experiential knowledge and practice.
A significant challenge in applying systems thinking, according to Geoff, is the solution-focused culture prevalent in Western organizations, particularly Anglo-American ones. He argues that many technology companies and consultancies prioritize selling solutions over truly understanding problems.
Geoff highlights the fundamental difference between systems thinking and process thinking, particularly in the syntax and notation of diagramming techniques. Rich pictures, for instance, lack the fixed notation of data flow or process flow diagrams. He also mentions key competencies for systems thinking, drawing on the work of Gareth Morgan, such as dealing with ambiguity and taking a holistic view, which are best learned through practice.
Systems Don’t Exist
A core concept Geoff introduces is that "systems do not exist" as definitive objects but rather as mental models or constructs dependent on the observer. The observer defines the boundaries, perspectives, and interrelationships. And every observer is different.
This perspective is crucial in understanding different viewpoints in projects, as illustrated by his experiences in Mexico with contrasting Western and Japanese approaches to designing an integrated steelworks, and in the UK with an attempt to design an integrated transport system. The Western approach often involved fixed boundaries and solutions, while the Japanese approach and Geoff's recommended approach focused on fluid boundaries and systems maps illustrating major systems and subsystems.
Ashby's Law of Requisite Variety
According to Geoff, systems thinking is not solely about holistic thinking but also involves analytical and reductionist thinking, especially when it comes to implementation. He describes a four-phase cycle of systems thinking: diagnosis, generating options for change (which are always suboptimal), evaluating options, and implementing a solution, which is a repeating, open-close cycle rather than a linear process with a defined end, unlike program and project management.
Our conversation goes into the prevailing analytical paradigm in Anglo-American companies, where strategy is often defined by mission, objectives, and goals, with no or limited understanding of Ashby's Law of Requisite Variety.
Ashby's Law states that complexity must be matched with complexity, meaning organizations in dynamic environments need the requisite resources and capabilities (including the capability to learn) to respond. Geoff critiques the impact of annual budget cycles on hindering this responsiveness. He contrasts this with the concept of emergent strategy, where organizations continuously develop resources and capabilities to adapt. Examples like the UK Oil company's role exchange program illustrate efforts to break silos and foster learning, embodying the competency of a "boundary crosser".
Viable Systems Model
Geoff emphasizes the cross-disciplinary nature of systems thinking, aligning with the principles of the Macy conferences and the views of thinkers like Ackoff. He explains the Viable Systems Model (VSM) as a tool for both diagnosing and designing organizations, underpinned by concepts like Shannon and Weaver's information theory, Ashby's Law, and IDEF0, a process modeling approach with control mechanisms. He elaborates on IDEF0 as a blackbox model based on Ashby's regulator model, highlighting the importance of control mechanisms in governing inputs and outputs in both open and closed systems (illustrated with the example of a lathe and a car manufacturer). The impact of external control mechanisms, such as tariffs, which organizations might struggle to respond to due to a lack of requisite variety, is also discussed.
This detailed conversation provides a rich overview of systems thinking, its challenges, and its relevance for navigating complex organizational and technological landscapes. It underscores the importance of moving beyond simplistic methodologies and embracing the nuanced, observer-dependent nature of systems.
Full Episode
The full podcast episode is here: