This week’s newsletter brings episode 25 of the Cyb3rSyn Labs Podcast, featuring Matt Lloyd PLY, who wears multiple hats: Chair of the Systems Thinking SIG at The OR Society, Member of the Centre for Systems Studies at the University of Hull and a Strategy and Compliance Consultant.
In this episode, Matt discusses his journey into systems thinking, rooted in his academic background and diverse professional experiences as a journalist, teacher, and Paralympian.
A core theme of the discussion is the imperative to make systems thinking more accessible to a wider, "systems curious" audience, often by drawing analogies from music, literature like Terry Pratchett's work, and everyday life, rather than relying solely on academic texts.
Matt also critiques the binary, solution-seeking approach prevalent in mainstream management, advocating instead for a nuanced understanding of problems and a multi-methodological approach championed by the University of Hull and Dr. Michael C Jackson.
“Systems thinking not only erases the boundaries between the points of view that define the sciences and professions, it also erases the boundary between science and the humanities.”
Table of Contents
Podcast Video
Members of the Cyb3rSyn Community can watch/discuss the podcast episode on the www.cyb3rsynlabs.com portal or the mobile app (iOS and Android).
Key Insights and My Reflections
Having followed Matt's intriguing posts on LinkedIn, I was keen to explore his unique professional journey and how it has profoundly interwoven with systems thinking, complexity, and cybernetics.
Matt’s story is a powerful reminder that expertise often arises from navigating diverse, seemingly unrelated landscapes. He started with an undergraduate degree in Business Information Systems at Liverpool John Moores University, diving deep into computer systems, cybernetics, and systems thinking, where he was fortunate enough to participate in Stafford Beer’s research. Yet, after graduation, he swore off the computer industry, carrying forward only the "softer side" of systems thinking.
His career then took fascinating turns: journalist in the music industry, teacher of systems to 16–18 year olds, and even a Paralympian in ice hockey. After retiring from sport, consulting brought him back to applying the systems lessons he learned as an undergraduate. Then came a profound turning point in 2017: a diagnosis of multiple sclerosis, adding to his existing condition of spina bifida. Worried about cognitive decline, Matt made a perhaps counterintuitive decision—he pursued a Master’s degree in systems thinking and practice at the Open University. This led him to a PhD at the highly influential Center for System Studies at Hull, UK.
Here are some of my reflections with the conversation with Matt.
Making Systems Thinking Accessible
Matt’s primary passion is making systems thinking accessible to a wider audience—what he and his colleagues call the "systems curious". As the famous quote says, all models are wrong, but some are useful. However, Matt stresses that usefulness only occurs if we can communicate in a language the user understands.
This is why, when teaching system dynamics, he references Robert Wyatt and shipbuilding, providing examples of causal loop diagrams. More broadly, he champions the power of stories, noting that "stories are what make the world go round". We are inherently wired to relate to stories, metaphors, and analogies.
If you want to understand systems thinking without being bored by an academic textbook, Matt recommends looking to unconventional sources.
Day of the Triffids: Matt considers this book a brilliant illustration of systems thinking. The narrative of the story highlights how humans cope when they are no longer the dominant species. It is rich with lessons on holistic thinking, interconnections, causal loops, and feedback.
Terry Pratchett: Matt considers Terry Pratchett to be "secretly one of the greatest system thinkers of all time". The fundamental concepts of systems thinking are embedded within his books.
Matt argues that systems thinkers often use long words, phrases, or technicalities, even among themselves, and sometimes, the people claiming to be systems thinkers don't fully understand what they are talking about. Matt is very clear that if we want to educate others, we must drop the jargon and embrace clarity.
The Fundamental Flaw in Mainstream Management
In the typical Western management approach, the focus is almost exclusively on seeking solutions, rather than first seeking understanding. The framing of the problem itself is an abstraction, and mainstream management often lacks the understanding required to move beyond seeking quick, definitive answers.
Matt identifies the search for definitive answers as the biggest issue in mainstream management.
Case Study: Vinyl vs. CDs: This analogy beautifully captures the difference between reductionism and nuance. People used to debate whether CDs sound better than vinyl. In the digital world, something must eventually be a one or a zero; there is no in-between. But in the analog world, nuance exists. When a note moves from C to D on a piano, it's binary; it moves from one key to the next. On a guitar, however, there is an analog point on the string where you are neither C nor D.
This binary thinking, common among those heavily involved in technology, makes it difficult to look at nuances. We have become so accustomed to reductionism—reducing complex situations to a "right way or a wrong way"—that we ignore the existence of multiple perspectives.
Systems Thinking and the University of Hull
For many technologists in Silicon Valley who encounter systems thinking, their lineage leads back to MIT, Jay Forrester, and Donella Meadows — the home of systems dynamics. However, many are not aware of the equally vital tradition of the University of Hull’s Center for System Studies, known for Critical Systems Thinking.
While MIT certainly has the greater history, starting in the 1950s, Hull (starting roughly in the 1980s) has quietly become one of the most influential systems thinking centers globally. Hull embraces critical systems thinking, which is a multi-methodological approach, moving beyond specific methodologies.
The most exciting development emerging from Hull today is EPIC (a framework developed by Dr. Michael C Jackson, as outlined in his latest book). EPIC builds on critical systems thinking and is actively being evolved by researchers at Hull to make it more accessible and understandable for the systems curious at a practitioner level.
Hull’s approach to systems education is two-fold. First, they deeply embed systems thinking within existing programs. Matt teaches on a top-100-rated online MBA, where systems thinking content is pervasive, even if it is not explicitly labeled as such. The goal is to "sneak it in".
This approach aligns with the core philosophy of the Center for System Studies: Systems thinking is inherently transdisciplinary, not a discipline in its own right. If systems thinking is about changing how people think, frame, and solve problems, it must permeate all fields.
Everyday Chemistry: Matt uses the example of coffee to illustrate this embedding process. When asked what chemistry is, most people refer to school lessons. But if you made coffee this morning, you engaged in chemistry — taking substances, combining them, and applying heat. It is so deeply embedded in our daily frame of reference that we forget it is chemistry.
However, Matt notes that the demand from the systems curious is growing, necessitating a shift. People now want a more formal, dedicated offering. It’s no longer enough to just embed it; people want clarity on what systems thinking is so they can develop those skills further. Therefore, the next stage at Hull is to deliver a very specific offering—what Matt calls systems thinking "loud and proud".
For those looking to deepen their engagement, the Center for System Studies is hosting the Systems Thinking Systems Practice conference, coming up in March 2026. It promises to be a great forum for connection and diving deeper into these ideas.
More on that in Part 2.
Featured LeanPub Book
Today’s Featured LeanPub book of the day is Connecting the Dots!
To celebrate, here is a special 15% off promo link to all the subscribers looking buy the e-book.
Also, we’ve been releasing two companion podcast episodes per week for since the publication of the book, Connecting the Dots. This week, two more podcast episodes are out - chapter 6 (Respect for Humanity and Team Work) and chapter 7 (Challenge and Continuous Improvement).
This companion podcast remains exclusive to the community tier members of Cyb3rSyn Labs. If you are a community member, you can download the e-book for free here and watch the podcast episodes here.
If you are a newsletter-tier subscriber, you can access the above (and more books and interactive features!) by upgrading to the community tier membership using the ongoing 50% off Founder’s Club offer.
That’s it for this week. Stay tuned for more multidisciplinary insights next week.