This week’s newsletter brings episode 26 of the Cyb3rSyn Labs Podcast, featuring Matt Lloyd PLY, who wears multiple hats: Chair of the Systems Thinking SIG at The OR Society, Member of the Centre for Systems Studies at the University of Hull and a Strategy and Compliance Consultant.
In Part 2, Matt dives into the upcoming Systems Thinking Systems Practice Conference to be held at the European Center for Systems Thinking - The Center for Systems Studies in Hull, UK. Matt explores the integration of academic theory with practical applications, with an aim to foster a community of 'pracademics'. We then discuss how different cultural perspectives can enrich systems thinking methodologies, permission to fail, the importance of asking questions and more...
Don't miss this engaging episode packed with insights for anyone 'systems curious' - filled with valuable ideas for both practitioners and academics.
“To be wrong slashes variety; one thing the scientist knows full well is that, in experiments, it is just about as useful to be wrong as to be right.
Both outcomes attenuate variety, until the search homes onto the answer that we seek.”
Table of Contents
Podcast Video
Members of the Cyb3rSyn Community can watch/discuss the podcast episode on the www.cyb3rsynlabs.com portal or the mobile app (iOS and Android).
Key Insights and My Reflections
In Part 2, a significant portion of the conversation focuses on an upcoming conference, Systems Thinking and Systems Practice, which aims to bring together academics and practitioners with an aim to create more ‘pracademics’.
Key themes include the importance of multi-perspectival approaches, citing the work of authors like Stafford Beer and Peter Checkland, and the need for the systems thinking community to be accessible and welcoming, encouraging people to ask questions and take risks.
Matt advocates for connecting academic theory with real-world application to ensure the field continues to evolve, referencing specifics like the viable systems model and critical systems heuristics.
Here are some of my reflections about the conversation with Matt.
Embracing the 'Pracademic' Ideal: Integrating Theory and Practice
The upcoming conference is intentionally titled "Systems Thinking and Systems Practice", which perfectly captures this crucial idea: isolation in either practice or academia is inherently reductionist and runs counter to systems thinking principles.
Matt and his colleagues are hosting the event not just for academics or practitioners, but for everyone, with the goal that people who enter as one or the other leave thinking, "I'm going to be a pracademic". As a fan of the practical theorist, Kurt Lewin, this is music to my ears.
If you are a practitioner successfully using tools like the Viable System Model (VSM), becoming a pracademic means you should go dig into the works of Ross Ashby to better understand Cybernetics, or Peter Checkland for Soft Systems Methodology. Conversely, if you are deep in the academic world, you need feedback from the real world. We must communicate across this divide; otherwise, the field stalls or falls into a rut.
Standing on the Shoulders of Giants and Making Ideas Accessible
Matt talked extensively about how systems thinking, despite its powerful foundations, needs to evolve. To suggest we should continue doing things exactly as they did is actually "quite insulting to them," as they were doing cutting-edge work at the time. We are standing on the shoulders of giants, not trying to present ourselves as those giants.
Systems thinking requires people to find ways to present existing ideas in a way that is accessible.
The work of Mike Burrows, who has made the Viable Systems Model (VSM) accessible, is a prime example. Matt noted that while VSM is a tool, Mike's approach makes it something people can embed in practice. Mike's work makes VSM practical, which then, in turn, might encourage the user to look at the topic from a more academic point of view later.
If you remember, we did a podcast about Mike’s latest book, Wholehearted. Checkout the episode and grab the book.
Harnessing Intuition and Gaining 'Meta Awareness'
One of the most intriguing points raised was the idea that some high-level executives and technology leaders are already very skilled at applying systemic ideas intuitively, even if they call it "common sense".
We discussed how some leaders intuitively understand when "people are dominating the problem situation" and naturally seek out multiple perspectives. They can "read the room" and know how to bring people toward a common goal.
For these naturally intuitive practitioners, learning the underlying theory - like soft systems methodologies - provides an awareness of what they are already doing and helps them move from copying “best practice” towards “theory-based practice”. This in turn helps them improve their effectiveness as practitioners.
Expanding the Lenses of EPIC: We also discussed Dr. Mike Jackson’s Critical Systems Thinking (CST) and his framework, EPIC (Explore, Produce, Intervene, Check). While the five perspectives of CST are crucial for academic rigor, Matt suggested that the "Explore" phase could benefit from looking at Eastern influences, such as the work of Rajneesh Chowdhury, who references ancient Indian cultural and systems ideas. This helps us consider different cultural perspectives and lenses that might apply outside a Western-centric approach.
I’m very curious to learn as well, as my own passion project is exploring the intersection of ancient Tamil language (my mother tongue) literature and the the insights in systems thinking, complexity and cybernetics - with an eye towards management/leadership. I hope to bring Rajneesh on for a future podcast episode.
Community, Connection, and Permission to Fail
Finally, we reflected on the importance of human connection over pure technology-mediated communication. Matt stressed that interaction at events (even just a cup of coffee next to someone) is as valuable as the presentations.
Matt offered clear, actionable advice for our community of technologists and executives:
1. Don't be afraid to ask questions.
2. If the person you ask doesn't give you an understandable answer, go and ask somebody else. Don't accept the first answer just because the person claims to be an "expert".
3. We need to have permission to fail. My own lived experience aligns with the popular saying that success is a poor teacher; making mistakes and "accumulating scar tissue" is how true learning comes about.
4. Remember that many times the answer is often in books, not in technology - even if you use technology to access the books.
I look forward to sharing more details about the conference soon! For now, here is a brochure with more information about the Call for Abstracts.
Companion Podcast - Two More Episodes
Two more episodes for chapters 9 (Thinking About the Thinking Production System) and 10 (Taiichi Ohno’s Adaptive Production System: Digging into the Technical Aspects) are now available as part of the companion podcast of the recently published e-book, Connecting the Dots.
Community tier members can download the e-book for free here and watch the podcast episodes here.
If you are a premium newsletter tier subscriber, you can access the above by upgrading to the lifetime community tier membership using the ongoing 50% off Founder’s Club offer.
That’s it for this week. Stay tuned for more multidisciplinary insights next week.