This week’s Cyb3rSyn Newsletter is another special mid-week edition carrying the fourth Cyb3rSyn Labs Podcast episode, my conversation with Roger James. This special episode is available to all the subscribers of the Cyb3rSyn Newsletter (including free) and can be watched on www.cyb3rsyn.com.
Roger has worked with insightful individuals like Alan Kay and Stafford Beer and calls out the nature of learning and how profound understanding often develops over time, sometimes weeks or even years after an initial interaction.
Roger started his academic background in science and physics, followed by his experiences in operations research, the pharmaceutical industry, and teaching Systems Thinking at the Open University (UK) and working with the University of Cambridge. He’s the "Where's Wally" of systems thinking, being present in significant scenes and learning through observation and practice.
“… What we call 'progress' turns out to be a recognition of advances in technique, and has little to do with advance in understanding. In short, we have become very good at following our technological nose - regardless of where we shall end up. But understanding is a product of modeling, and the useful models change very little over the millennia."
Table of Contents
Podcast with Roger James
A significant portion of the conversation delves into Roger's worldview and concepts within Systems Thinking. He contrasts his scientifically inclined background with more emancipatory approaches within systems thinking, advocating for a pluralistic view that allows for the building of different ideas.
Roger elaborates on the metaphor of the six blind men and the elephant, highlighting Churchman's critique that the arrogance lies with the "teller" who claims to see the whole picture, underscoring the importance of humility and multiple perspectives in Systems Thinking. He also introduces Stafford Beer's perspective that progress is often in technique rather than fundamental understanding, relating this to various schools within complexity science, cybernetics, and systems thinking.
To me, another key highlight from the conversation is Roger's “bushfire” model for understanding the history of Systems Thinking, where initial ideas spread unevenly due to various "winds" of influence, leaving some valuable areas under-developed while others become dominant "firefronts".
He discusses several influential books, including "The User Illusion" by Tor Nørretranders, which introduces the concept of "exformation" and the bandwidth of consciousness, and Christopher Alexander's "Notes on the Synthesis of Form," emphasizing the value of understanding the messy origins of ideas.
Finally, in response to a question about advice for technology practitioners, Roger cautions against the allure of large projects based on his past experience, advises on strategies for communicating with leadership, and encourages them to fully leverage the incredible capabilities of modern technology.
We agreed to do more deep-dive podcasts on various topics including Cybernetics, VSM, Ashby’s Law and more in the future. Until then, here is the full conversation:
Full Episode
The full podcast episode is here:
Book/Paper References
Here are the books/papers recommended/referenced by Roger in the podcast session